The Modern Fear of Tragedy (ft. Hadestown)

So, twoish weeks before Thanksgiving Break, I became obsessed with Hadestown. The timing was nearly providential, because I was going to NYC for break, and that city happens to be home to Broadway, and Hadestown happens to be on Broadway still...anyway. This is probably old news to you, given that I raved about it (briefly) in my November Wrap-Up, but I still like thinking about how providential it was. And...I digress.

Please allow me to regress. Hadestown!

One of the things which struck me most when I was listening to it to the first few times was that it's a straight retelling of Orpheus & Eurydice (as well as Hades & Persephone, to a certain extent). 

(And by straight, I mean "exact", not whatever else that word implies. Although technically it is that, too. XD)

In other words, she still goes back to Hades(town) at the end. 

(I don't consider this a spoiler, since it's exactly what happens in the original myth. If you don't know the original myth, that's on you.)

And the first time I listened to it (or, okay, maybe the second time, when I was actually listening to the words), I was a little shocked. And then very impressed. 

Because a lot of the time these days, people don't have the guts to write tragedies. Or at least, not romantic tragedies. There, I said it.

In the majority of popular culture, the guy gets the girl (or vice versa) at the end of the story, no matter what else sad is going on in the story. 

Think Harry Potter. Think Avengers: Endgame (I'm still irritated about that one. Steve did not need that!). Think Jumanji. Think The Hunger Games. Think the Ascendance series. Think every Disney movie ever

And I could keep going, but what I don't need to do today is trawl through my book & movie lists finding all the media where the guy gets the girl. Because it would be way too much. 

No one has the guts to look at reality and say "huh, sometimes romantic entanglements don't end happily", and write like that. And even when it looks like they're going to, oftentimes it gets turned around at the last moment! (Looking at you Endgame & Ascendance series. *eyeroll*) There's a ton of pressure also for authors writing retellings to end the retelling happily, if the original story doesn't have a happy ending.

You may be thinking, "Samantha! What about fiction as escapism, like Tolkien talks about? Why can't we have stories where the guy always gets the girl, if we're hoping for a more idealized and better world?"

Well, my answer to that would be twofold. 

1. You're taking Tolkien out of context
2. The reason why we have all these stories where the guy gets the girl is unhealthy

First of all, in his essay "On Fairy-Stories", Tolkien argues for escapism in fairytales, and the kind of escape he's talking about isn't from humanity and the life of human nature, but from the modern world. He's talking about escape into fairytales, which often show the most brutally real picture of human nature and human tragedy ever, not an idealized and better world. But it's still beautiful. Think even about Tolkien's own work. The story of Turin Turambar is inescapably a tragedy, and a romantic tragedy at that. But he didn't look at it and go "oh, it's sad, therefore it's not escapist, therefore it's bad". No. He (probably) looked at it (even if subconsciously) and said, "this is an escape from the modern world, which still reflects the inescapable effects of sin, but also shows the beauty that can be found in tragedy". 

Just to back all that up, Flanner O'Connor argues that the mark of a really good author is his or her clarity of vision, and ability to see human nature as it is, and depict that. 

(At this point, am I just name-dropping Catholic authors? ...maybe.)

All of this doesn't mean that authors are compelled to write about The Hard Facts (which are very much subject to interpretation), but rather than they should write about people and the human condition, which, shocker, sometimes includes disappointment in love (often because of the human weakness of one of the parties). 

Secondly, I think that the modern world has idolized romantic love and especially the feelings of love to an unhealthy extent, while leaving out little things like duty or vows or circumstances or religious differences, &c. 

Think about the modern world. We live in a world where people decide that since they love each other they can do whatever they want. Love is king, and if you love someone, it doesn't matter what the circumstances are, just be with them! Run into the sunset! Yay! 

Obviously, this then leads to things like fornication, adultery, cohabitation, divorce (often multiple times, as the fuzzy feelings of love wear off), aberrant behavior, and so on. 

The problem is that the fuzzy feelings of love do wear off (in six months to two years), and then what you're left with is either nothing (if the two people are not married) or the vows (if they are), which are easily broken if divorce is an option. And then we're back to square one: find someone you have fuzzy feelings for! give them everything! be with them! run into the sunset! yay! ...oops, I don't feel fuzzy feelings anymore. Must not be love! Leave that person! 

Lather, rinse, repeat. 

Since human beings were made to give themselves exclusively to one other person--even beyond the fuzzy feelings into love-as-willing-the-good-of-the-other--this makes people excruciatingly unhappy, even if they won't admit it. 

So, they want reassurance that the thing they've made the god of their life--love, and specifically those fuzzy feelings--are really worth giving their whole life in search of. So, they want their stories to reflect that, where people always end up with their warm fuzzy person.

And, okay, I kind of get it. Even as someone who's not of the persuasion that if you love someone, you should be with them at all costs, I do love stories where people end up with the person they love. Given that love (specifically romantic love or eros) is ordered towards possessing the other person, as a rightly ordered human being, I rejoice when it achieves its end. And that's a good thing.

But then, its end (in human relationships) is marriage, where the two people truly possess each other, and I'm not going to encourage that if it's a bad idea! Or if the two people aren't eligible for marriage! 

And ALSO, since I don't subscribe to the notion of people always getting to be with their warm fuzzy person, I think I'm more willing to entertain stories where even if the two characters are "eligible" for marriage (i.e. not married to other people or God), it just doesn't happen, either because of circumstances or because of flaws in the people themselves (or both). 

Because sometimes that's how life is and understanding that is part of seeing life and human nature with clarity of vision.

It's not necessarily that people who ascribe to the being-with-your-fuzzy-person idea because of their other romantic ideas don't know that sometimes that doesn't happen--they just don't want to acknowledge it, because their desire to be-with-their-warm-fuzzy-person is their god, and they don't want their god to lose its power. 


Anyway. All that to say: stories of people not getting to be with their warm fuzzy person are not popular these days, and I think that if we had more of them, the world would be a better place.

There are many stories which I would like to see told which go against the being-with-your-warm-fuzzy stereotype! I would like to read a story about someone who has an arranged marriage as a monarch and falls in love with someone else but gives that person up because their duty to their country as monarch is more important. I would like many stories about people who selflessly (and rightfully...not like the setup of Persuasion) let their love go so that their love can do something important in their life. I would like a story where someone's love dies, and they are able to move on and have a happy marriage to someone else. I would like a story about an engaged couple dying before they're able to be married (and bonus points if it's clear that they're remaining chaste until marriage!). 

Back to Hadestown. All of the above to hammer the point home that I really, really admire the chutzpah of the creators of Hadestown for keeping the original story and keeping it true to itself. Because I think even if it's not what's "popular" these days, it's really valuable for people to consume stories where the guy maybe doesn't get the girl. Even if it's sad. And it is! I find it sad! I'm not saying I'm a heartless person who hates romance! But I am saying that even though it's sad, I like it, and I think it's valuable. 

And even thought that trope isn't especially popular or sought-after...or at least, it's not what's being written...people do love Hadestown. Which is interesting to think about.


The thing I find most interesting about the tragic ending in Hadestown is that it's foreshadowed both directly (in the beginning song, "Road to Hell"! The lyric"See, someone's got to tell the tale/Whether or not it turns out well/Maybe it will turn out this time/It's a sad song, it's a tragedy" kind of gives it away) and indirectly, and it's caused by the flaw(s) in Orpheus's character.

Orpheus is used to getting what he wants with his music. Things aren't exactly easy for him, but he can afford to be a musician. (He's part of the creative class, if you will. We've been talking about the rise of the creative class in my Urban Planning class.) He's naive. He can take time to work on his songs. He somehow doesn't have to worry about where he's going to get his next meal. He gets the girl...at the beginning of the musical, at least. His music can make rocks cry. Obviously he can get whatever he wants. 

Whereas Eurydice clearly is a subsistence worker, scrabbling for her living, hungry, lacking. Nothing has ever come easy for her. Thus, she has chutzpah, she has determination, she has a certain level of ruthlessness. (She's part of the working class, if we're using the Urban Planning matrix.) 

When facing the world head on, Orpheus wants or needs Eurydice by him. He needs her courage to bolster his own, since because everything is easy for him, he's never had to develop courage and chutzpah of his own. 

It might be a bit strong to say he's a coward. But he's never had to really work for what he wants. His music has always convinced the world to do what he needs it to do. (Very clearly displayed in "Wedding Song", where he assures Eurydice that the world will provide for their needs. Oh, Orpheus.) And when subsistence work is necessary (as it is towards the end of Act 1 of Hadestown, when Eurydice is starving), he hides. He doesn't do it. He works on his songs. 

When she's gone, he goes to the underworld to get her back. And it's the hardest thing he's done in his life thus far. He ends up bruised and battered, but he's pursuing his love, with the strength with which she'd pursue him. She's in front of him, he's running after her. 

But then, when Hades asks him to walk out of hell without looking behind him, it's the new hardest thing he's ever had to do in his life. And he doesn't have Eurydice with him to lend him her strength...and he's not running towards her. She's behind him. He always looked forward to her for his strength, and now he can't. Hades even anticipates this--I love the line he has in "His Kiss, The Riot", where Hades sings "Nothing makes a man so bold/As a woman's smile and a hand to hold/But all alone his blood runs thin/And doubt comes..." 

And because Orpheus hasn't had much practice developing his own strength, building the virtue of courage, doubt does come in. He doubts the word of Hades, he doubts Eurydice, and he can't do it. He doesn't have the strength, either of character or of conviction. 

He fails.

He fails because of his own flaws, his own lack of growth in virtue. It's a tragedy because of his human flaws.

And that's the best kind of tragedy, because it reminds us what happens without God's grace. The world is a tragedy without God's grace, which is why so very many of the Greek myths or plays are tragedies. And I think that a retelling of one of those is extremely timely, in a world where God's grace is not expected or even believed in, because it gives a glimpse of the world that an essentially atheistic society should be expecting.

And even as someone who believes in God's grace, I can admire the clarity of vision in seeing human nature here, and the incredible compactness of the storytelling and of Orpheus's character arc.

It's SO BEAUTIFUL, GUYS. IT'S REALLY SUPER AWESOME. 


So, what do you think? Do you like tragedies, from time to time? Are there stories you'd like to see about people not getting their warm fuzzies? Are you a fan of Hadestown

Comments

  1. Whew, Sam, that was a trip! Well done.

    I really liked your explanation about why today's world doesn't like tragedies, and consequently why tragedies are so important for today's world. Honestly, I'd never thought about the question before. But you've thoroughly convinced me, so thank you for that.

    I will say, though, that the list of non-warm-and-fuzzy stories that you want to see is very, very off-putting. Which, I guess, means that I've bought into the cultural idea of fuzzy feelings, to some extent? But your engaged couple one especially is just heart-wrenching to think about. (Which...is the point, I guess. But still.) (Also, do I see a jab at The False Prince in there, at the beginning of that paragraph?) (Also, do you like how many parentheses I'm using?)

    Can you tell me more about this 'creative class'? Urban Planning sounds fascinating.

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    1. Thanks, Legolas!

      I'm happy you liked it! It was something that just sort of came to me when I was writing, and I was like "...okay, I would not have thought of that just by itself, but that totally works!"

      Well, okay, I'm not saying they'd make me the happiest. But I think they'd be the best kind of bittersweet. ESPECIALLY the first one. (There was absolutely a jab at The False Prince in the beginning of the paragraph. The fact that they *didn't* do that STILL makes me mad.)

      Well, there's a theory that there's a growing "creative class" of highly educated people who do things like make art, do design, write scholarly books, and so on (basically anything you go to college to get a degree in) supported by the "working class", who does everything that the creative class doesn't want to do--construction work, manufacturing, cleaning, food service work, and so on. They're often the ones considered "essential workers", but also generally paid the least well. It's a really interesting way of thinking about things!

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  2. I am in the middle of writing an essay that is due at midnight. Thus I have no coherent thoughts. However, this was marvelous, I'm glad you liked Hadestown because it's wonderful, and I am glad you have shared your intelligent and beautiful thoughts with the rest of us :)

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    1. Well, good luck with your essay! And thank you for taking the time to comment! Thank you so much, and I'm very happy that you liked my thoughts. :)

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  3. part 1 of very long comment (oops):
    Hadestown is already very high up on my list of musicals to listen to, but you have very much solidified that fact. It's also SO AWESOME that you actually GOT TO SEE IT ON BROADWAY???? Like. That is so cool. I am so weirdly vicariously happy for you, haha.

    Also, I disagree with most of this post (I think) but very much agree with some parts of it and...please just forgive me if this comment is a mess, basically. :P

    So like, first, I don't think I am taking Tolkien out of context when I say he advocates for happy endings as escapism beyond the bounds of realism. I think you're restricting him more than he restricts himself if you apply his concept of escapism only to escape from the modern world. He addresses that almost "accidental" (as he calls it) aspect and then goes on to what he considers the more profound forms of escapism fairy-stories can offer...such as the ability to understand and communicate with animals (something we haven't been able to do since the Fall) and the escape from death (also a hard no since the Fall)...he calls those profound and important parts of the escapist power of fantasy, and they're kind of exactly an escape from our (fallen) human nature. I think he'd totally place escape from the inescapable brokenness of our human relationships among them and advocate for the happy ending to the romance being the default. He says that tragedy is the highest form of Drama, but eucatastrophe is the highest form of Fairy-story. He uses the girl getting the guy after all, seemingly when all hope was lost, in The Black Bull of Norroway, as an example of potent eucatastrophe ("'Seven long years I served for thee, the glassy hill I clamb for thee, the bluidy shirt I wrang for thee, and wilt thou not wauken and turn to me?' He heard and turned to her"). He has Luthien and Beren get to be together, because they love each other, in life and death and beyond, though they're from two separate places that maybe never "should" have married. They didn't give each other up out of duty or deep-rooted suspicion of warm fuzzies.

    Obviously, you don't have to agree with Tolkien, but I do think if you're saying sad endings (particularly to fictional romantic entanglements) are just as valid as happy ones and happy ones shouldn't necessarily be the norm, that isdisagreeing with him.

    I think tragedy, including romantic tragedy, has a place, but I also think there's a reason happy endings are the norm and I'm super okay with that. Fiction is archetypal. We live in a story that is fundamentally a story of redemption and eucatastrophe and Happy Ending. If stories are gonna reflect reality, they should reflect that, I think. People are supposed to give themselves to each other in love; we should write about the beauty and truth of that more than about the unfortunate circumstances that sometimes prevent it.

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    1. part 2 (of 3 oh my gosh this comment is so long i'm so sorry):
      I love your frustrated bit about how love is thought of these days (everyone really truly is miserable and won't admit it, that is so spot on Sam), and I think part of the frustration one can have with "happy endings" in modern romances is that they're not truly happy or don't understand what causes happiness or...the characters don't deserve to be happy. They have fatal flaws that should have ensured they'd be the hero in a tragedy where their fatal flaw brings them down (like Orpheus, seemingly, in Hadestown), but they still get the girl, because, basically, the writers don't have the guts to admit to themselves where an honest narrative would actually take this character and this story.

      (Or they just...weirdly think a happy ending makes up for all the other bad stuff? I normally love Helen MacInnes, but one of her novels does this, where like all my favorite characters are dead, there's been so much pointless death and destruction, but...yay happy ending because the two [frankly boring] main characters get to ride off into the sunset together?? NO THANKS, MACINNES, THEY CAN JUST DIE TOO, I LITERALLY DON'T CARE ANYMORE AT THIS POINT.)

      I actually have always hated the myth of Orpheus & Eurydice with a deep and abiding hatred. Because I always read the story as a story of incredible constancy, which Fate just thwarts at the end because Fate'll do that to a fella ('specially an ancient Greek fella), nothing you can do about it. The story made me mad as a kid. Stories like that still make me mad. Fiction isn't about realism; it's about truth. Losing the person you love through no fault of your own, despite all your best efforts, is realistic, but what's truer is that constancy matters and is rewarded in the end, and love is not wasted and is stronger than death. Orpheus & Eurydice (the myth) sacrificed truth for realism and I did not appreciate that at all. (It does sound like the musical totally changes that, though.)

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    2. part 3 (i should have sent this as an email instead or something ACKK):
      Have you read The Prisoner of Zenda, by the way? Because the romantic subplot is exactly one of the ones you said you wanted to see. (Well...it is if you interpret it the way I do. If you interpret it like my mom, she didn't choose between love and duty; she chose whether she loved power or him more. I love how cynical but also romantic my mom is sometimes. XD IF SHE HAD TRULY LOVED HIM SHE WOULD HAVE RUN AWAY WITH HIM, CONSEQUENCES BE HANGED, AND--) I actually like that one. However, for the Persuasion-but-rightful one, I honestly can't think of an example that wouldn't be super contrived and silly. (Besides religious life.) In every case I can think of, why not just marry him and go do the thing with him??? Marriage is a partnership that equips you to BETTER succeed in your ministry. Choosing between life work and love is SILLY; GO DO THE LIFE WORK TOGETHER. *bangs idiotic characters' heads together* And as for moving on when your love dies, that's just sad. I think about my grandmother, who never sat in my grandfather's place at the table after he died, never danced because they always danced together, never played euchre because that was their game, visited his grave faithfully for over ten years, and was perfectly fine. She had kids and family, granted, but it would have been silly to ask her to move on and have another happy marriage. It would also have been disrespectful of her grief. Sometimes people just...find their special person? And don't find somebody else? And fiction where they're supposed to move on and find love again (I've read plenty of it) bothers me deeply because frankly it feels disrespectful and reductive and dismissive. But maybe that's just me. And the last one about two engaged people dying before they can marry...just WHY? Why would anyone write this????? What would be the point??????? I am so upset that you would suggest writing such a horrifyingly sad story???????

      I don't know. I guess I think romantic tragedies should serve a very specific point and happy endings should be the norm. And warm fuzzies won't sustain a marriage all by their lonesomes but I just think they're more important than you do, I guess. (I find this hilarious since in general you are FAR more of a romantic than me when it comes to fiction. XD And...life, technically, now, as well. XD) Also I DEEPLY APPRECIATE the shade thrown at that particular plot twist in the Ascendance series--absolutely the last straw for me with those books!! And another example where I think the romance not ending all ship-shape for everyone would've been the way to go, actually.

      Anyway, I felt strangely passionate about this topic so I hope this comment doesn't come across as me being upset, because I'm not. Or...like...mean. I disagree with some stuff, agree with some, was pleased to be caused to sort my own thoughts on this topic, and am grateful to you for writing this excellent post. <3

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    3. Sarah, GOD BLESS YOU FOR THIS COMMENT! (Even if it was long and slightly intimidating to answer. XD) Whenever I post a post like this, I know it’s probably 70-90% accurate, right, and What I Actually Think, but the remaining 10-30% may be dross, and I rely on people to be like, “uh, Sam? That doesn’t sound right” for me to actually, um, think through exactly what I mean all the way. XD So, I MASSIVELY appreciate you taking the time to comment at length!

      I CANNOT WAIT to hear what you think of it when you listen to it! Because…I have a feeling there will be many thoughts, and I am excited. 😊 I was LOSING MY MIND about how awesome it was to see it on Broadway…God’s timing is the best.

      Okay, maybe I didn’t read far enough in “On Fairy-Stories”? Well, that’s embarrassing. XD You’re right, I think, that he also advocates escape from the results of the Fall. But I also think that in a way, he doesn’t practice that in his own stories. His endings may be happy—but not all the time—but the middles very much reflect the results of the Fall? So I’m not quite sure where I think he falls on that spectrum.

      Now on to your point about making the happy ending be the default. I don’t think I made it clear enough in my post (because I was VERY frustrated, lol), or even clear in my post at all that I don’t think that tragedy should be the *default*. That would be SUPER DEPRESSING and I do love a happy ending as much as the next person. (Faramir and Eowyn make me cry. There, I said it. If Eowyn just went away sad because Aragorn wouldn’t marry her, that would KILL ME. But then again, F & E’s romance has an element of tragedy in it because it happens in the wake of the death of Eowyn’s love for Aragorn, in a sense.) And also, I don’t think that just because it doesn’t seem like people *should* get married, they can’t be brought together. (I do object, though, to people who clearly *shouldn’t* get married doing so anyway. XD)

      I guess what I want is for tragedies to be common enough for us not to take the happy endings for granted. Does that make sense? If we expect every story to have a happy ending, it’s not exciting. There’s not that suspense, that worry, that fear that it’s not going to turn out. And if authors were brave enough to make things somethings not work out, it would heighten the enjoyment—even the life, if that’s not a weird thing to say?—of their stories with happy endings. I think Tolkien did a great job with that—most of his stories end in Eucatastrophe, but then he has the FANTABULOUS tragedy of Turin Turambar (which is very fated, it feels like, although also related to characters’ faults…so how do you feel about that one?). Does that make sense at all?

      Basically, happy endings should be the *norm*, but they shouldn’t be the *only* thing. And also, sometimes a happy ending looks different than is expected. I think that the False Prince series could have had a happy ending if dude had just married the person he was technically betrothed to. Maybe a bit bittersweet? But happy.

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    4. Part 2 of my reply (and please don’t apologize for length!)

      Ahh, thank you! I’m glad that part got your approbation. Because it’s something that frustrates me A LOT. XD YES YES YES. Happy endings have to be earned, and they can’t just be slapped on the end because oh, the author wants a happy ending. Sometimes, there would be a tragedy, and a happy ending rings false. Is that more or less what you’re trying to say? Because I like that a lot.

      (Dang, that sounds SUPER FRUSTRATING. But also, your anger about it is somewhat amusing. XD)

      Interesting! I don’t think it was ever my favorite myth either? (But then, I’m not sure if I had a favorite myth? I kind of took them all as a lump, in a weird way?) But I don’t know if I thought as deeply about the “your fate is your fate no matter what” thing, and how wrong that is.

      I LOVE, though, your point that truth is what matters, more than realism. I think I’ve lost sight of that in thinking about all of this? And it’s definitely something that Flannery O’Connor talks about, because at one point she talks about “warping the narrative” more than reality in order to convey truth. Hmm. I appreciate the reminder! (And maybe I should make you proofread my blog posts. XD)

      The musical does change that—but not entirely. The Fates are still there—but they’re not what actually cause the catastrophe in the end. I need to think more, I think, about whether the musical is too much about fate and not enough about choice or not. (I think it would help if I could remember the choreography from that part better, but I cannnnnn’tttttt. *frustration*)

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    5. Part 3…

      I haven’t read The Prisoner of Zenda! Is it a webcomic, or some other format? I’m very curious now.

      Okay, I do get your point about “why not just marry the dude and do stuff together”, and truth be told, except for religious life I can’t think of any examples either. BUT the one cavil I will include is that marriage isn’t *necessarily* ordered towards whatever ministry it is you feel called to…it’s ordered ultimately towards the procreation and education of children. So, I think that when people are married, it’s right for them to do ministry together…until they have children, and then the children need to take priority…until they’re grown. And some people can still do ministry while their kids are growing up, and some people can’t, but I don’t think that it’s right to postpone having kids for the sake of a ministry. (This opinion might be shaped by the fact that one of the promises Catholic couples make at their wedding is to welcome children lovingly from God…I don’t know what your views on children in marriage are. 😊) Of course, couples who are infertile would make an EXCELLENT ministry team, but if you know that you’re indubitably infertile, you’re also not supposed to get married (in the Catholic church.) So…I don’t know exactly how I feel about that.

      I think there’s a LOT of beauty to someone NOT moving on from love…one of the priests I know talks about how one marriage should be enough, because you should have learned through that to love God enough that you don’t need to love another person as a second spouse. The case I was thinking about was more if a very young husband or wife died. But I also had one great-grandfather who was so cast adrift when his wife died that he needed another woman to love to give structure to his life, or else he’d just…drift. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing (although maybe he could have done something else to get that structure). So I'm not going to say that moving on is The Worst Thing Ever. It can be the right thing, sometimes, I think.

      For the last one, though I dunno…it just appeals to me! Sort of. But I also would find it horribly sad? I need to think more about why I suggested it, I guess. XD

      I think I generally agree with you in your wrap-up point, especially that tragedies should serve a point (although I’m not sure if I 100% agree about what point they should serve) and that happy endings should be the norm (but not the thing that happens 100% of the time!!).

      Warm fuzzies are important, I think (although I am VERY curious about arranged marriages and how the spouses end up loving each other in those, which would maybe sort of be an exception?) but they definitely shouldn’t be the thing on which a solid relationship is based. They're important in their place. (I guess I came off as…very disdainful of warm fuzzies? Which is funny, because…well, that’s not something I’m going to admit on a public blog. But I you know what I mean. 😉 Which is all to say that they can be treated in a way that puts them as part of a well-rounded courtship, or they can be idolized, and the second treatment I hate with a burning passion. The first, though…that might be okay. In specific circumstances. XD)

      THAT PLOT TWIST IN ASCENDANCE WAS THE WORST. There are definitely times where the “conventional happy ending” is very much the WRONG thing to do, and that was one of them.

      You don’t come off as upset at all, and I’m so glad that you left this whole comment, because I’ve had an absolutely grand time sifting my thoughts, and I’d love to hear what you think of all this!

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    6. Well, I don't think Tolkien advocates for complete escape from the Fall; maybe I'm mixing up escape from the Fall and eucatastrophe a bit in this discussion? But I don't think he means to write stories without sin in them at all--maybe without certain effects of sin. (He calls death the Gift of Men at some point, so I think a fairy-story could even illustrate why some things that came about due to the Fall are good in a way; maybe sin would cause truly horrible things that it now can't cause because of some results of the fall, like death? Idk, speculation.)

      ...But anyway, I don't think tragic elements in the middles of stories goes against Tolkien's philosophy. The whole point of eucatastrophe is that the tragic elements of the middle have made it seem like there couldn't possibly be a happy ending, and then there is. (Like F & E's romance being so beautiful and satisfying because of the loss and grief both characters have experienced--I think stories without any tragic elements in them maybe wouldn't be stories as we think of them? Maybe?)

      Ooh, Turin Turambar is an interesting one. I like it and think it's good, and it's definitely a "happy ending would ring false so I want a tragedy" story (yes, thank you for expressing that better than I could XD), so it's about as good as it can be...and even though it's all "Turin's fate is so terrible and tragic, everything he does will go wrong," the way it plays out is he makes bad choices and is manipulated and I think it's a combination of circumstances beyond his control and his own pride that ultimately doom him? So it's one of those hero-with-a-fatal-flaw tragedies, and I approve of those... Okay, so yes, I like the story of Turin, BUT I don't think it's Tolkien's best, if that makes sense. It's good, but his happy endings are better. They seem more profound to me, and I think I actually feel the loss and stuff in them even more keenly than in Turin's story. Tolkien is so good at making you understand just how precarious this happiness is, I think: just how miraculous grace and restoration are.

      "I guess what I want is for tragedies to be common enough for us not to take the happy endings for granted." Fair! and actually maybe same.

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    7. I am totally not judging people who remarry, like your grandfather; I agree that their stories can be beautiful (just so that's clear). My experience has just been on the other side of the issue and I'm very sensitive about it, apparently. XD And I think there's a beauty to the exclusivity of love for a spouse, and I like what your priest said about it fitting you to love God, because it's a lot like that love you're supposed to have for God where you couldn't love anyone else the same but it enhances your love for everyone else, and sometimes people are like "you need to move on and love again and stop being pointlessly faithful to a dead woman," and I'm like, "SHUT UP."

      I mean, okay, so with marriage, in Genesis it seems to me that children naturally happen as a result of marriage, but Eve is Adam's companion and helper first of all, so...I kind of do think marriage is ordered toward ministry? Also children, though, and I TOTALLY agree that children should come first once you have them (I've seen too many examples of people NOT doing that).

      I didn't know people weren't supposed to marry if they're indubitably infertile in the Catholic Church. To be blunt, that seems really sad and unnecessary to me. You're not allowed to make room for the possibility of a miracle? Or if you're infertile in a way that really is indubitable (like you were born with only one ovary and when you were seventeen something happened and it got twisted and was poisoning your insides and they had to surgically remove it--weirdly specific because it's an actual case lol), you can't adopt? (There are already-born kids that need parents, and I don't understand why, if someone can't have her own kids, she's not allowed to mother those kids. And surely kids are better off with two married parents than with one unmarried one.) Or...I just...you could be a spiritual father and mother in a ministry to people that need it.

      I hope this comment makes sense(ish) and you can tell what I'm actually responding to? I'm tired and sick and probably missing things, but I LOVED reading your comment and thinking about all this.

      Oh, and: The Prisoner of Zenda does sound uncannily like a webcomic title, now that you mention it, haha, but it's actually a novel. By Anthony Hope, I think, written toward the end of the 1800s, not too long? (not that I'm hinting or anything :P)

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    8. You’re probably right—and I think that the Fall is actually necessary for eucatastrophe, because if the Fall hadn’t happened, a good turn to the story wouldn’t be unexpected, as it is in eucatastrophe. But it’s interesting, because you’re right—he doesn’t look away from fallen man, but sometimes he elides some of the aspects of the Fall. Or maybe he just looks on the bright side? Because God brings good out of evil, so to say that the Fall is an unequivocal evil is just false. Usually, we recognize that by saying that without the Fall, the Word wouldn’t have become flesh and dwelt among us, but I think Tolkien’s redefinition of death as the Gift of Men is another way of doing that. It’s a secondary gift after the Fall, sort of. Because if fallen man lived forever, that would be a curse. I don’t know if I can compare that with the Incarnation or not, but anyway. Things to ponder.

      No, of course not! Tragic middles are absolutely necessary, and kind of like I was saying above, if there’s no tragedy in the middle, eucatastrophe is not actually eucatastrophe. And those are the most beautiful kinds of eucatastrophe, when done right. (Aaaaahhhhhhhh Faramir and Eowyn!)

      I do love stories where the middle is so dark, and the happy ending has a tinge of bittersweet, and I think Tolkien excels at those. And maybe one does feel the loss even more keenly, when everything else is happy, but something has been lost that can’t be regained. BUT THAT’S NOT THE KIND OF STORY THAT PEOPLE ARE WRITING NOWADAYS AND IT MAKES ME MAD. Maybe that’s part of all of this. The middles aren’t tragic enough, so I don’t buy the happy endings.

      I’m glad that we can possibly agree on that! :)

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    9. There absolutely is a beauty to the exclusivity of love for a spouse! After all, the vows (at least, the Catholic ones) say “to love you and to honor you all the days of my life”. All the days of *my* life, not of *your* life. And of course, once the spouse is dead, “honor” can maybe mean something different, but it’s totally valid for it to mean “keep your memory alive by not remarrying”. I don’t think that being faithful to your dead spouse is pointless. To be clear. :)

      In the Catholic Church, it’s considered that there are basically three “points” or “purposes” to marriage (it gets complicated, because marriage only has one “end”, but I’m trying to be brief here, and not write an essay with quotes from the Summa Theologiae XD): to get your spouse to heaven, to procreate and educate children, and to become one with your spouse. (Again, this is a slight oversimplification.) There’s no *specific* marriage-is-ordered-towards-ministry in Catholic theology, which may be a difference between the Catholic church and others, because y’all don’t really have celibate people who give their lives to ministry in the same way that we do? But we don’t necessarily think about a “ministry” that a married couple is called to. Every couple has *something* that they have to do—a marriage isn’t about just looking at each other, but about being a “we” who goes out into the world and DOES STUFF, but that is often children, or it can be hospitality, or it could be a youth group, or whatever. So maybe in a way, it is ordered towards ministry? But that can mean really different things for different couples, and children are a higher priority. In general. Like, if a married couple was postponing having children because of a ministry they were doing, I *might* expect them to get told that that was not what they were supposed to be doing. But I don't know that for sure.

      I was thinking about this issue more deeply, and I went and looked at a couple of sources, and *drumroll please*…I was wrong. I don’t know who told me that people who are infertile can’t be married in the Church, but I was incorrect, with a couple of caveats.
      -If the person knew they were infertile, but didn’t tell the person they were marrying, that makes the marriage invalid.
      -If the person deliberately sterilized themselves in order that they can’t have children, that would nullify the marriage.
      -If the people involved can’t consummate the marriage, that would make it null.
      But if they’re infertile either because of a condition—like endometriosis or PCOS—which could be overcome with time, or because of a condition which can be reversed—like a vasectomy or tubal ligation—or if, like in the case of your example, they’ve had a sterilizing surgery but *not* because they didn’t want to have children, they could still get married. And adopt. ;) Or be spiritual parents!

      Thank you, actually, for making me look all of that up, a) because I find it fascinating and b) because I was a little paranoid about fertility &c. XD

      I hope that you feel better soon!

      And I’ll have to take a look for The Prisoner of Zenda!

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    10. I'm glad you looked it up, and thank you for doing so! 'Tis fascinating stuff. (What an...awful thing to do? Marry someone without letting him know you're infertile beforehand? Yikes.) This makes me think of a question I've had about Catholicism for a while: y'all have annulments of marriages, but do you ever recognize valid divorces? The position I'm used to as a Protestant is based on Jesus's saying that anyone who divorces his wife for any reason other than infidelity is an adulterer; so basically we think (I'm not speaking for all Protestants, necessarily, but pretty broadly I think) divorce is wrong except in cases of infidelity and abuse (which is infidelity of a different sort). But divorce is a little different than annulment, and I'm just curious if there's...such a thing as a Catholic divorce, I guess. And for what.

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    11. You're welcome! Canon law rabbit trails are always fun. (I know! That would be horrible. Like...dang.) Okay, so I'm not an expert on annulment, and I've been told it's very, very complicated, but to the best of my understanding, here's what the deal is. An annulment isn't the dissolution of marriage. It's a certification that a valid marriage never existed in the first place. (I don't know if there's a set short list of criteria for validity, but some of them include consent of both parties, intention to be open to life and Do The Marriage Stuff that the Church says must happen in marriage, &c). Basically, if there's any kind of deceit, if either one of the people had the wrong intentions, and so on, the marriage can be declared null. And that's an annulment. (It generally requires a civil divorce before the annulment process can be gone through with.) But in a valid marriage, i.e., one with no grounds for annulment, there can be no divorce, even in cases of infidelity or abuse, although the Church does, in the case of abuse, highly endorse separation, and even legal divorce, as long as the party(s) understand that they're still married in the eyes of the Church, and can't remarry. I know the verse you're referring to, about infidelity, and I think we interpret it differently? But I don't know of all of the details of that. Does that answer your question? If not, lemme know and we can continue to discuss!

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